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foreign
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are we okay at the back to get going thanks everybody uh so listen thank you so much for spending time with us I know
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you have a lot of options and sexy mood lighting um
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today so uh it's really nice for you to spend time with us my name is Maya Toussaint you already know I'm from
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Montreal a little bit about me I work at Shopify I am a senior program manager
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for diversity in engineering what does that mean we need diversity everywhere and why is it just in engineering well
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we do have a diversity and belonging team globally with Shopify I managed to sneak in uh to be a a part of a very new
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and Tiny team called dine so diversity and Engineering was better than dye so I added the n in there
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we have two main focuses the first one is to attract top talent and
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specifically attracting top talent that come from gender minority groups as well
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as racialized communities or underserved communities whatever terminology you're
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using these days and at the same time to decrease attrition of those same communities so the retention aspect so
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we get you in how are we going to keep you a little background I've worked in
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recruitment for over 10 years I've done a lot of Dei or diversity equity and inclusion training I love speaking to
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lovely humans and non-humans however you roll and I'm really excited to be here
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today this is a little panel chat with some new friends I've made I will let them introduce themselves we'll start
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with Stephanie hi um I'm stephaniemann my pronouns are she
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her I'm based in Chicago I'm a developer at thoughtbot and an active member of
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wnb.rb a community for women and non-binary rubiists
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I'm Katarina pawn my pronouns are also she her and I am based in Portland
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I have spent my entire career has been in development primarily front-end
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development but I'm actually I work I'm part of the faculty at Portland State University right now
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thank you I'm so happy to have you with us today my pronouns are also she her thank you for uh reminding me so I've
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got a few questions that I'm going to ask my lovely panelists we'll leave room for questions as well even though we've
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got just a tiny bit of time together so first uh you know we've had a lot of conversations this is the three of us
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together but from what you've seen and heard what are some of the reasons women
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non-binary folks leave Tech spaces in your opinion and from what you've seen
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so yeah I can start this one off um from what I've seen and heard from a
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lot of my friends and um just like personal experience uh psychological safety is a really big one
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um for us and feeling uh safe and having people we trust in
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our workplace environment um and yeah having that culture of commitment
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to you know making it a space for for everyone and that means you know
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inclusive meetings and inclusive code reviews and
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um just making sure that uh you know we are holding folks
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um separately another thing that I've noticed is
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um women and non-binary folks missing out on technical opportunities being pushed
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to dealing work that might take more emotional
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labor and to utilize those soft skills in terms of being pushed into management when they might not be ready
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and yeah not being invested as technically as as
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as other people Katarina what about you yeah absolutely um and it just occurred to me that I um
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didn't do my full introduction I also helped lead an organization here in Portland women who code so I also have I
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can share some stories from some of our many members as well to answer the
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question specifically you know I think it's it can be so many different things
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um that make it really tough to stay in tag um but you know many of the things that
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Stephanie mentions but I will also add um that specifically when you are you
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know not um not sort of given the same opportunities um in terms of like project scope
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um improv in terms of responsibility when you don't feel like you're getting promoted sort of maybe at the same rate
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that other people might be um when you don't feel like you're being your work is being valued in the same
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way that other folks's work is being valued and I don't necessarily think that
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um or I'll say that we're lucky with tech because you have the opportunity to
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switch to other companies but sometimes it may be that it's sort of like that same story from company to company
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um and you know you're you're not finding that manager and that team
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um that's you know helping you thrive in Tech and you know after a while it just
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it just makes makes sense to to leave and then I also I know that in our our
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chat ahead of this panel we also talked a little bit about motherhood and how that can also be
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incredibly difficult and there's been studies done on this in terms of
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you know mothers and sort of how the pay decreases once they have a child versus
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how for fathers you sort of are able to stay on that same you know salary projection over time
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um and I think related to that this is this is in the ladies get paid book I I
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don't know if you've read it but there's a lot of interesting information on there related to Motherhood
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um this this thing called the motherhood tax which is mothers who have won
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mothers their paid decreases by four percent when they per child they have and with fathers it's sort of like a
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fatherhood bonus where it's their salary typically increases by four percent and so I think when you put all of that
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together you know there's there's just there's a lot of reasons
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where people don't feel like supported within the environment they're at and they end up they end up leaving yeah
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because I imagine and I I'm not a parent well unless you can't Levar purton but I
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don't he's he's fine um you know coming back to work after maternity leave or we'll call it
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parental leave right coming back and maybe not having a thoughtful lead or
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manager who doesn't really recognize some of the flexibility you may require
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or coming back and feeling like you're starting over almost even though well
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you haven't lost your knowledge you just might need to get right back into it so it's about kind of being inclusive and
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and that kind of leads me into the next question you know what are our needs you
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know how can companies so it's leads colleagues non-marginalized folks
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prioritize those needs you know in other words um the inclusive ways that makes us want
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to stay what are what are some of the things that come to mind to make it feel better
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you want to start Katarina switch it up a little sure sure I mean um you know I I think you know like
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Stephanie mentioned um you know feeling uh feeling like you're part of a a good work environment
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is you know the first step um but I think there's also you know
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various things that Maya is probably doing in her in her role in terms of putting together specific initiatives to
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make sure we're you know taking a look at sort of like what um how people are paid how people
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are promoted um sort of like how can people sort of like submit
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issues that are happening at work do those get addressed or you know is that something that like doesn't get
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addressed what happens if you know you're part of a team where
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um it's it's really not a good environment for you what happens if you bring that up to
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someone other than your manager who you know may be the person who is causing causing frustrations
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um like how does the company handle that so um you know I think there's there's a
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lot of ways to sort of address this one it's kind of like things that you can do as a person to maybe like be more
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welcoming to everyone on your team everyone at your company but then there's also very specific things that
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you know someone who has more power such as a manager or a director can do and
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then of course there's just an initiatives that are going to be company-wide that I think
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um you know can can tell you a lot about the priorities of that company so
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um so all of those things really contribute to to making someone
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um I guess feel feel safe and welcome and included and valued at work
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yeah I am kind of thinking about you know we were talking about motherhood and
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um obviously during the pandemic you know folks who were caring for children it was just
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just the most challenging time in their lives really and I think
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you know to have to hide those challenges or to not talk about like
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those personal things that you're experiencing day to day and how that might affect your work is
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um is not an inclusive environment and you know to make space for folks to be like
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you know open about like what they're needing um when they have like they are
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you know have to do what they have to do um is is really important and I think what
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you said about managers and leaders um having that power to
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you know just keep a pulse on how people are are
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feeling and making sure that the burden
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of responsibility does not fall on those who are marginalized you know I've heard
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I've heard stories of um a friend of mine who you know maybe was having a really difficult time with
00:11:41.519
a co-worker who was very hostile to to her encoder View and even in meetings um you know being
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uh actively critical of her work in meetings and you know her manager really
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didn't know how to handle that situation and and kind of told her to see if she
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could work it work it out with that person as opposed to you know
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using that authority to um maybe better encourage and hold
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people accounted accountable to those you know inclusive meeting and code review guidelines to coaching that
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person um and and trying to ex you know just spread the importance and value of
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um you know keeping maintaining that that space that safe space and
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I think um at the level of the company
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um one thing that I've really appreciated about thoughtbot is that Dei work is rewarded it's part of your
00:12:45.120
growth as a developer it um you you know
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have to commit yourself to this work to
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um to make an impact of the company and that looks like uh
00:13:04.920
participating in the Dei Council there's a a rotating membership on the council
00:13:11.899
and that you know encourages folks even just developers designers
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people on the business side to to to participate and make an impact on the rest of the company that is you know
00:13:24.779
felt and it makes it feel
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um important and not just the work that falls on on folks who are
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you know the once most impacted by it so those are a few things
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you've made me think of a few things Stephanie when you were just talking and you as well Katarina so it's important
00:13:47.399
to note that you know Dei work is everybody's job it's not just hr's job it's not just talent's job it's every
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single person in the company's job in in the world's job but like I'm not going to get into that
00:14:00.060
um and uh you know what's nice what I can say in terms of
00:14:07.200
the work that we're we're doing at Shopify I know you mentioned Katarina kind of through some of the programs or
00:14:14.700
maybe it's HR strategies Etc having leadership really you know talk the talk and you
00:14:22.800
know walk the walk and all those good things we have a CTO who at every opportunity talks about how important uh
00:14:30.720
diversity is and what I love um about what he mentions is he's kind
00:14:36.360
of beyond the proving that it's good for business like we should know that now you know we're kind of a few years into
00:14:43.019
it if you do a Google search you can find all the percentages you need so he's kind of beyond the talking about
00:14:48.540
the benefits but he will for those who maybe need to hear it kind of like look your outcomes are better your teams
00:14:55.199
perform better you are going to make more money as an organization if you have
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um different types of people in the workplace and so we kind of it's just
00:15:06.180
all of our jobs to tough to make sure everybody feels good and feels included and you know some of the things and and
00:15:14.279
I mentioned it just in case it's helpful some of the things we're looking at from A diversity and inclusion program
00:15:21.540
perspective um you know Partnerships is one that's pretty straightforward are we partnering
00:15:27.120
with different communities so going where the people are not just assuming
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black people uh lesbians are going to apply to us because hey we're we're this
00:15:38.699
this great company it's let's go where the folks are where the communities are show that we are invested in learning
00:15:46.019
about working with including these these folks and kind of remembering well your
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end user your customers are so diverse so we should be as well so that we make
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better products and everything um Partnerships and then on the on the
00:16:04.800
retention side I mean that's a tougher one right you know a lot of people talk about diversity
00:16:10.079
Equity inclusion and belonging and that belonging piece what does that mean because I mean I can feel included and
00:16:15.779
maybe but I but maybe I don't feel I belong like it's a pretty personal thing um it's that idea that you can you know
00:16:22.139
be your full self be your your 100 true self and then there'll be some folks who argue well I don't think I ever would
00:16:29.040
want to be 100 my true self at work like that's like a different thing um anyway I'm going on and on so
00:16:36.420
um when we think about being the only and I want to reference yes we've talked
00:16:41.639
about you know women non-binary folks like in terms of you know uh let's let's say
00:16:47.820
um gender minority everything we're talking about can be leveraged for the
00:16:54.180
different uh communities that are historically ignored historically marginalized under served
00:17:00.779
underrepresented um you know I yes I I am a woman but I'm
00:17:06.360
a black woman I am a queer black woman like like I'm thinking of all the different ways that intersectionality
00:17:11.939
and how um inclusion just matters for everybody so so when we think about being the only
00:17:17.939
sometimes or the only and they take that however you will um of a particular group team Department
00:17:25.459
company even what are some of the ways to access community
00:17:32.160
or or find the support that you need if you don't have it in your immediate space and and I'm going to kind of steal
00:17:38.880
some of these ideas and I would love to hear from from you if there's some things that you're also doing because I
00:17:44.940
also see it um parallel to 100 remote work I'm an extra extrovert I am
00:17:51.840
struggling with being a hundred percent remote I miss people so getting the
00:17:57.000
community that I need maybe outside of the Norms would love to hear kind of how
00:18:02.580
we can do that and then I'm like legit want to hear if you uh have comments around that and also questions
00:18:09.299
um that we can sneak in and and play off of who wants to take that one first I can
00:18:16.140
sorry about that um I I can take that but before I answer it I also wanted to go back to something
00:18:22.440
that Stephanie um said the code reviews um
00:18:27.480
so I um I I've got to share some data about a specific research paper that was done on
00:18:34.320
code reviews and specifically unnecessary code reviews um so I you know at PSU I primarily
00:18:40.200
teach about web Technologies and voice assistance but I'm also co-teaching a
00:18:46.020
class called cultural competence and Computing and um so I've just been reading a lot of
00:18:52.320
information on the stuff you know as as we prep this class and
00:18:58.020
um so I don't remember the exact name of the paper but it's essentially code reviews at Google and
00:19:03.840
um you know how many of them are necessary versus unnecessary and
00:19:08.940
um So based on the research they've done they found that um there are about 1
00:19:16.440
000 wasted hours on unnecessary code reviews at Google
00:19:22.080
um like every day and um obviously like that data is very
00:19:27.179
specific um and I mean you know you can sort of like divide it up in terms of like gender in terms of like race and then
00:19:33.900
also in terms of age um but it's sort of you know it's
00:19:40.980
um it was really funny too not funny funny is the wrong word here but as I was the
00:19:48.600
day that I was teaching this information um I was given feedback on a course
00:19:55.200
proposal I submitted which is you know just part of the bureaucracy so it wasn't really like a new course
00:20:02.700
um but the feedback was uh was actually you know this entire email explaining
00:20:08.820
the subject that I that I was teaching uh to me and then it wasn't explained
00:20:13.980
very well um and I I got that email and two hours later I'm you know teaching this class
00:20:19.740
and also going over this paper where we talk about code reviews and all the times you know your your expertise is
00:20:28.260
just not believed and um and then all the extra work that you have to do because you know I could have
00:20:35.160
just like not received that email and we would have been great um but I had to respond to it I had to
00:20:42.059
you know send to our department chair and be like what what um and so and you know that also I've
00:20:49.679
been working there for a couple of years now but even you know before in terms of like uh you know PRS and code reviews
00:20:56.460
and um I I certainly remember you know sometimes you know going through so many different
00:21:04.380
um different rounds of of having to like you know like change very like small things and like this needs to be renamed
00:21:11.940
like this why there's no real indication on why and so I think a lot of it's not that it
00:21:20.039
happens once and then you sort of like you know quit your job or quit Tech but it's it's where that keeps happening
00:21:27.000
time and time again and I am going to link this to your question in terms of like okay so so how do you
00:21:35.760
address this and I think for me the best way that I've been able to is really establishing a solid support network
00:21:44.760
um and you know we're always told of having mentors and having sponsors but I also found that a lot of times it's really
00:21:51.120
about you know building a support group of like friends and people that you can go to
00:21:56.940
um you know for those small things that happen that absolutely like derail you a
00:22:02.520
certain day and you just feel like you just it's just important to to
00:22:07.799
address it with someone else and it's important to get feedback on like
00:22:13.679
am I crazy or is this just you know like or it was this like inappropriate is
00:22:19.679
this like you know toxic environment because I think sometimes if you're not
00:22:25.080
able to recognize that you might um you know you might have to to be
00:22:30.539
dealing with it and it kind of like Too much exposure to that ultimately
00:22:37.140
um you know leads leads to things like burnout and leads to things like needing to just you know be done with tech and
00:22:45.179
so yeah I would say that that support group I know for me the first three jobs that I've had in Tech I was the only
00:22:51.360
developer or the only woman developer on the team um I didn't think that affected me at
00:22:57.299
all but you know in retrospect I think I I I would have preferred to have
00:23:03.780
worked on different teams to at the start of my career
00:23:10.020
yeah um I feel like I was very hesitant and didn't
00:23:16.620
know how to get involved in the Ruby and rails communities prior to joining wnp I
00:23:25.220
had hadn't even really thought about going to conferences I'm just like oh I don't know like I'm just learning this
00:23:31.200
technology like how do I how do I like there's a community
00:23:36.539
um and yeah like seeing uh Emily and
00:23:42.179
Gemma the co-organizers of wnb um you know just like promoting this thing and uh they're like yeah we're
00:23:49.020
having our first event um you know it's it's it'll be virtual and I was just like oh okay like maybe I'll go to this thing and check it out
00:23:55.860
um and then it has like really grown a lot since then I think they maybe had 50 people show up at the first Meetup where
00:24:03.240
they gave a platform for uh women and non-binary speakers to give you know
00:24:08.520
20-minute talks and just like learn from each other um and then since then they've
00:24:14.340
uh you know organized different things that the community needs in fact it's not
00:24:20.760
even always them organizing um uh within the group it's they are so
00:24:25.980
encouraging of people to start whatever they feel like they're needing like interview prep groups
00:24:32.280
um cfp working groups that was one I joined when I submitted a talk to rubyconf last year
00:24:38.880
um book clubs and and it's truly I feel very empowered to start like whatever
00:24:46.140
thing I'm noticing that I'm meeting or just kind of ask around and be like hey like would you be interested in this
00:24:51.840
thing um and I actually asked Emily you know how they even got the idea to start wnb
00:24:59.700
um and she was just like oh yeah Gemma slid into my DMs and so for folks who are
00:25:05.940
feeling you find it um
00:25:12.000
this week like this was a great opportunity to to meet someone you know just to turn around to them and be like
00:25:18.179
hey um I've certainly been trying to make eye contact with everyone I meet here
00:25:23.520
and she's like how do I start a conversation with you um so yeah when I think about finding
00:25:30.840
Community you know just like being being open to to it open to receiving it open
00:25:36.000
to um reaching out uh you know at least I personally know
00:25:41.820
that I would love for anyone to come up to me and you know just start a conversation or even now just be like oh
00:25:48.000
I saw you on this panel um so yeah that actually was very off the
00:25:54.419
cuff there but like thinking about thinking about how much
00:25:59.580
more involved I've become um since showing this community actually brings me a lot of Joy
00:26:05.580
um I don't know hopefully you can kind of tell yeah um so that's that's what I got I love it I
00:26:11.279
love it and you've both referenced this without using the word but representation and so how important it
00:26:18.360
is uh you know how representation really does does matter um you know there are fewer
00:26:26.220
women non-binary folks in leadership roles it's just a fact fewer black
00:26:31.679
people in leadership roles Asian Community et cetera et cetera and so you know I've been asked oh do you want to
00:26:36.960
be a leader and it's like I I've managed folks I love managing people I don't necessarily want to to like that's not
00:26:44.279
my main goal but I will definitely take on the opportunity so that I we can show
00:26:50.159
that yes you can you can do this you can be a a leader in the community Etc
00:26:55.620
um wanted to see if there are any questions in the few minutes that we had even comments or even you know wanting
00:27:02.279
to say Stephanie let's chat after hi I'm gonna repeat the question just uh so
00:27:09.179
just in case the backhand here but um thank you I can't read your name but thank you
00:27:15.480
Alan thank you um so asking Stephanie you know when we're talking about like
00:27:22.400
wwbwnb.rb for example um how can one be an ally from let's say
00:27:28.740
a non-marginalized community how can you be an ally how can you help support um yeah I'll let you take that yeah
00:27:36.000
thank you for asking that question um I know for a fact that they are very actively looking for sponsorship and
00:27:43.799
so you know if you're in a leadership position um being able to give give money to you
00:27:51.720
know funds the things that they do including purchasing books for our book club for for folks who might not be able
00:27:57.659
to be you know have might not have a learning budget um I know that they you know uh gave
00:28:10.740
um you know just like being aware that these organizations exist so that you can point your colleagues to them for
00:28:16.260
folks who might be feeling a little more you know you know wanting more Community or wanting to connect with people who
00:28:22.260
look like them um but sponsorship from I'm not a co-organizer but one of the things that
00:28:28.500
we've been talking a lot about is um just like how much work that they've been doing to try to expand the stuff
00:28:34.440
that they do and um you know trust that they will put that money to good to good use for the
00:28:40.679
community did you want to add anything Katerina in terms of of ways that maybe allies can
00:28:46.140
support uh women who code or anything else you're a part of sure
00:28:52.320
um yeah I mean sponsorship uh the um I think every single organization can
00:28:59.279
can use more funds in terms of the events that we put together
00:29:05.520
um I think also you know we're I know as an organization we're always looking for speakers and so you know sometimes
00:29:12.779
sometimes that might be you but sometimes there might be people um you know presenting sort of making
00:29:19.799
connections to other people within the industry other people within your company
00:29:25.140
um sometimes that can also be you know like in terms of
00:29:31.440
um I don't know that we're ever going to have like in-person events anytime soon
00:29:37.620
as like Community organizations um but you know that can also be
00:29:43.380
um hosting at your company and being the person who like you know stays after work to help that specific event happen
00:29:50.580
I know um in the in the Years prior to the pandemic I know we had a lot of a lot of
00:29:57.299
support that way as well you could do one sneaky last question
00:30:02.460
how can the how do our companies uh how do they reward us for all the hard
00:30:10.260
hard work that we're doing in Dei do you have answers for that and I can jump in I I feel like that's that's a perfect
00:30:17.520
question if you want to also yeah I do have an answer at least specifically from what I've seen at thoughtbot and I
00:30:24.480
don't know honestly like I haven't seen other places do this so I would be really curious to hear more about that too but
00:30:31.140
um Dei is a whole area that is part of um your kind of developer or just like
00:30:39.000
your skills evaluation and so um
00:30:44.120
you you know are expected to contribute in that way in order to be promoted
00:30:49.740
um and that is a way that it's been codified into you know our policies you
00:30:55.200
know and our culture um which is I don't know that's like the
00:31:01.200
first that I've seen of it so I thought that that was that was really cool and um yeah just making sure that folks
00:31:08.640
folks know that that is like an expectation um I I've seen just the way that you know
00:31:15.779
we're able to have those conversations more openly because we're all on the same page that you know this is
00:31:22.020
this is an expectation that and and that is that is rare and that is awesome that
00:31:27.179
uh your company does that um other ways to to kind of reward folks
00:31:32.220
for uh for it the the people who are doing the work let's say um leadership
00:31:37.260
of the employee Resource Group so let's say you know women at Shopify the black
00:31:42.659
at Shopify lgbtq communities Etc um they are uh
00:31:48.899
hopefully I'm allowed to tell you they're given a you know like a budget to be able to do some of the things they
00:31:55.200
want to do for for the community internally um being able to get together uh as a
00:32:01.260
team again we're 100 remote so it is a big deal to be able to all meet in one place and spend time together to think
00:32:08.279
about what you want to do in terms of let's say belonging campaigns for the year
00:32:14.159
um you know being able to attend conferences Etc that are related to the community those are some of the some of
00:32:20.940
the ways that folks are being rewarded and then there's just the little side piece which is just genuine nourishment
00:32:27.779
I'll speak for myself and feeling really good about seeing the impact and having people tell
00:32:34.080
the stories has been quite rewarding um don't want to take up too much of your time lunch is opening up in five
00:32:40.620
minutes thank you so much for spending time with us today happy to I'm happy to connect on LinkedIn I'm not going to
00:32:45.720
speak for them but please thank you so much again stay hydrated be