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foreign
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thank you all for agreeing to be on this
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panel
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so um for those of you who haven't been
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here for the past two days inclusion is
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a big theme at this conference and we
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wanted to weave it into every aspect of
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uh the conference experience including
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our sponsorships and so that's the topic
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that we want to discuss on this panel we
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don't just have an obligation to include
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each other but our companies the places
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where we work have an obligation to be
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inclusive towards uh their employees
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so I'm going to first ask all the
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panelists to briefly introduce
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themselves
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I'm Jeffrey lessell but you can call me
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Geo I'm from Planning Center and we do
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it's kind of like a SAS software for
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churches this is our first uh Tech
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conference to sponsor so I'm super
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excited to be here and come see us at
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the oversized Booth if you have a chance
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in the sponsor panel get some awesome
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socks some software for your feet
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uh I'm Ryan Laughlin or rofrag if you
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know me from the internet I'm one of the
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co-founders and the CTO of splitwise
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which is an app for splitting expenses
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with other people we're also a first
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time conference sponsor so hey bud
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um and uh we're based right here in
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Providence so it's been totally
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delightful to just walk to the
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conference every day I highly recommend
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it if you can do it
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okay
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uh hi I'm ufok ofokaiser Lolo I'm an
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engineering manager on the Ruby and
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rails infrastructure team and I lead our
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efforts in working on the C Ruby the
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Ruby language and alternative Ruby
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implementations like truffle Ruby
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songs as well
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awesome thank you it seems that if you
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leave this conference without at least
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one extra pair of socks you have done it
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wrong so
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okay so we're gonna start with the topic
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of hiring that's often like the first
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Contact employees have with a company so
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I wanted to ask what does your company
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do to create an equitable and inclusive
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hiring process
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and whoever wants to start can go for it
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yeah I'm happy to jump in um I think one
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thing that split wise moved to a while
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ago that I found really helpful and felt
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very good about is like paying people
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for the process of interviewing
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especially take-home projects I think
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there's a pretty unequal expectation
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traditionally in Tech that like oh you
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probably have some side project that
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you've tinkered on and many of us do but
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also many of us don't have the privilege
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of having the time to do a bunch of
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stuff on the side or to do a new project
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for specifically a company uh just out
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of the goodness of our hearts like at
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the end of the day most of us need jobs
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in order to be paid in order to survive
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and so if you're going to spend four or
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five hours doing something for us you
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deserve to be compensated for that time
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and so doing that and then making sure
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that regardless of who you are and
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whether or not you're moving on to the
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next stage that we debrief that project
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with you and we talk you through it and
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like give you the courtesy of that and
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also the learning experience of that
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like even if you're not necessarily
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ending up on the splitwise team like it
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is an opportunity for us to get to know
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you it's an opportunity for us to give
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you feedback on how you can continue to
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grow I just feel as much much more human
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so I think it's a pleasant much more
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pleasant experience for us and hopefully
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for the person on the other end of the
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experience as well
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I think for us along those lines we
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haven't got to the point where we're
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paying people at this point but after
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every round of hiring we go through and
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audit each step of the the hiring
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process and make sure that we're trying
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to be as inclusive and diversive in
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every one of those steps from sourcing
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all the way through to thinking through
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how much time people have so for example
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uh during one of our last audits we're
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talking through a take-home exercise
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that has a a cap in terms of time and I
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was like just get people you know as
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much time as they can so they can do as
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best they can or solve problems and then
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someone else mentioned and I hadn't even
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thought of this someone else mentioned
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well that kind of allows people who have
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more free time to take advantage of that
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and just even those conversations like
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oh man I didn't even consider that
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people who aren't like me who have extra
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free time who are like a single parent
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who have to take care of children or
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other loved ones who just do not have
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that extra time don't get a benefit of
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extra time over someone else who doesn't
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have that availability so every hiring
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round we do things like that talk
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through with the people we hire in that
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round how the process went if there's
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anything else we can look at and then as
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far as sourcing like even things like
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this sponsoring a conference like going
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to where there's going to be a multitude
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of people represented that we can say
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hey we're hiring come check out Planning
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Center even letting people know that
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Planning Center is a place that is a
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place that does Ruby we've been doing
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Ruby since like 2006 so we have lots of
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opportunities within the company uh to
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to come in
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um so yeah everything from the source to
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the higher we try to audit and make sure
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we're doing everything we can
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yeah at Shopify
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um yeah this this is something that we
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take very very seriously at every step
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of the process so even when it comes to
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training our interviewers everyone must
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go through anti-bias training that's
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part of the um qualification of being an
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interviewer at Shopify whether you be
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someone that's meeting a candidate at a
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technical interview coding a coding
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exercise through to a short list of
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course you know hiring managers going
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through this as well
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um also for us it's really important to
00:05:44.039
understand a person behind the work so
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we hire people not resumes and for that
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we have an interview actually very early
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in our process something we call the
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life story and this is really an
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opportunity for us to understand a
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person their experiences with their
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bringing to their work and
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um and so really understanding that
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Journey
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from a human perspective this is
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something that I know a few companies do
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you know kind of similar things to try
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to understand a person but we really
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want to understand that around the scope
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of someone's work and how they've come
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to this point in time today
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um
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yeah and of course similarly to I would
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say that at every stage of our process
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like we're calibrating
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um across with the interviewers to make
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sure that we are being aware
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um of of that of any bias that may be
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coming up but again with like ongoing
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training and ongoing conversation we're
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trying to mitigate that from the very
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beginning also to talking about sourcing
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and Outreach like we make really huge
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efforts to change the ratio of the top
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of our candidate funnel
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um we know when we post jobs externally
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a certain type of profile that's pretty
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overrepresented let's face facts we'll
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we'll throw their hat in the ring
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whether they're qualified or not
00:07:03.060
um and so in order to to really again
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stem against that we we put in a lot of
00:07:07.680
work to do active sourcing partnering
00:07:09.720
with organizations thinking long term
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about the future of of who we want to
00:07:15.060
see in Tech and really reducing those
00:07:16.740
barriers of Entry to to to Shopify and
00:07:19.560
to Tech in general
00:07:22.139
awesome thank you for those varied
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answers I really like the um
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the different yeah the different types
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of approaches that you take uh Geo you
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talked a little bit about coding
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interviews specifically and so I'd love
00:07:35.759
to dig more into that I think a big hot
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button Topic in the past couple years
00:07:39.479
has been lead code style interviews
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whether or not they are good whether or
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not they are inclusive so I really want
00:07:46.259
to dig into that do you use and by lead
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code style interviews I mean interviews
00:07:50.699
that Focus really hard on algorithms and
00:07:52.979
data structures over like building
00:07:54.660
software that you might build in your
00:07:56.580
day-to-day work do you use them do you
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think they're inclusive why or why not
00:08:01.199
yeah absolutely we actually ship a
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whiteboard to the candidates and uh have
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them write on the white no I'm just
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kidding we do not
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um now we try to make that uh that
00:08:11.580
process as stress-free as possible so
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I'm actually one of the two leaders of
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that last step in the process which is
00:08:18.539
our technical interview so the highly
00:08:19.979
technical stuff
00:08:21.240
so the first we capped that at an hour
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and a half the first 45 minutes or so
00:08:25.080
are really just us getting to know the
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candidate you know what do you like to
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do what are some things you like to do
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for fun tell us your technical
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backgrounds and then um but even from
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the very beginning on our hellos I go
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through hey this is what's going to
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happen in the next hour and a half the
00:08:38.039
first 45 minutes we're going to talk but
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I'm letting you know up front now that
00:08:41.399
the last 45 minutes we're going to go
00:08:43.260
through a technical exercise together
00:08:45.240
it is fully open book if you want to
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Google stuff if you want to go to stack
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Overflow look at documentation we're
00:08:51.480
like we're here to learn how you think
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and how you solve problems not that
00:08:55.440
you've memorized the entire rail 6 API
00:08:58.920
um we are we're here to answer questions
00:09:00.959
you may have so if you stumble onto
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something just you know we we're here to
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help you we can ask leading questions
00:09:05.940
we're not necessarily going to give you
00:09:07.320
the answer all the time but at least we
00:09:09.120
can help you get to a point where you're
00:09:10.860
thinking in the right path so as long as
00:09:13.080
as far as the exercises themselves
00:09:14.760
there's no like algorithms we're not
00:09:17.040
trying to put in any gotchas or not
00:09:19.019
trying to trick anyone it's really just
00:09:21.480
hey we have this rails application and
00:09:25.200
it has a couple bugs we'd like to add a
00:09:26.880
few features let's go into Trello and
00:09:28.980
get that done together so we're really
00:09:30.600
trying to be even an ally in that step
00:09:32.760
itself to be like hey let's it's like
00:09:35.040
repairing here and you're you're going
00:09:36.720
to be the main driver of this exercise
00:09:39.080
so even especially even in the email
00:09:41.880
saying hey you made it to the step
00:09:43.260
prepare we we've got this um kind of a
00:09:45.839
prep app that you can install beforehand
00:09:47.760
make sure your technology is up to date
00:09:49.500
and and has the available plugins that
00:09:52.200
you need or whatever so you do it on
00:09:53.880
your laptop you're comfortable with your
00:09:55.740
editor we're not forcing you to enter
00:09:57.180
using Vim or anything like that if
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you're not familiar with it you're just
00:10:00.959
comfortable in your own environment so
00:10:02.160
we tried to to make it as comfortable as
00:10:03.899
possible for the interviewer and then
00:10:05.220
after that we buy them we send them a
00:10:06.839
doordash gift card because it's like you
00:10:08.279
know what this is a rough process and it
00:10:10.980
took I know even if you're as calm as
00:10:13.200
you can be I know that before we got on
00:10:15.060
the call you were stressing about it and
00:10:16.620
I know that you gave us an hour and a
00:10:18.180
half of your time and so I'm gonna buy
00:10:19.680
you dinner you know that's we really
00:10:21.300
appreciate their time and we want to
00:10:23.279
show that appreciation
00:10:26.240
okay okay
00:10:28.680
um I joined Shopify about four years ago
00:10:31.620
and I had my interviews yeah around this
00:10:34.560
time four years ago and I I don't come
00:10:37.680
from a computer science background I
00:10:39.300
joined Shopify as a senior developer and
00:10:41.820
I guess if Shopify were to ask me
00:10:44.100
algorithmic questions I would have
00:10:45.959
failed out right I have no idea how to
00:10:48.720
balance binary trees red black trees
00:10:51.060
whatever I still don't know but I know
00:10:53.640
that if I need to know that if that's
00:10:56.640
relevant to my work I can just Google it
00:10:58.440
learn about it and apply it
00:11:00.839
um so what what we look for at Shopify
00:11:03.839
are people that can make a difference
00:11:05.640
are people that can solve a problem but
00:11:08.040
even more importantly people who
00:11:10.500
communicate well and who can work as
00:11:12.720
part of a team because what we're doing
00:11:14.519
at the end of the day is the team sport
00:11:17.000
but we all like idolize people who are
00:11:20.640
like contributors individually they're
00:11:22.800
great 10x Engineers whatever there are
00:11:25.500
some people who are like really great
00:11:28.380
Engineers obviously but it doesn't
00:11:31.440
matter if you're great and you're on on
00:11:33.480
your own if you can't work on that as
00:11:36.180
part of a team and you know work with
00:11:38.820
others so that's the kind of things
00:11:40.560
we're looking for it's very similar to
00:11:42.300
the process you've described
00:11:44.160
we do pairing exercises we work on a
00:11:47.220
real life problem and we look at how
00:11:50.040
they're approaching the problem not
00:11:51.660
necessarily if they're able to solve it
00:11:53.820
or not are they asking the right
00:11:55.800
questions do they go and reference
00:11:57.899
documentation online or not what do they
00:12:00.720
do when they get stuck those are the
00:12:03.540
signals we're looking for more than you
00:12:06.660
know can they memorize some algorithms
00:12:08.700
or not
00:12:09.779
yeah very much agreed on all friends I
00:12:11.820
think the the other not a lot echoing
00:12:13.380
what you're saying is that
00:12:15.240
um something I really appreciate about
00:12:16.260
day one of the conference here was how
00:12:17.880
much Focus was on communication and I
00:12:19.680
think that a lot of traditional
00:12:21.300
technical job interviewing processes
00:12:22.860
really don't identify that like at least
00:12:25.019
half if not more than half the job of
00:12:26.519
being an engineer is being able to
00:12:27.899
communicate and being able to like talk
00:12:30.600
through a problem with other people and
00:12:32.279
figure out how you want to approach it
00:12:33.660
before you ever write a line of code and
00:12:36.240
so the more that your interviewing
00:12:37.440
processes can involve things like pair
00:12:39.060
programming can involve things like
00:12:40.620
talking through the design of an API
00:12:42.899
together or working with people from
00:12:44.459
other teams at split wise we make sure
00:12:46.079
that like you actually interact with the
00:12:48.660
people that you're going to interact
00:12:49.680
with on a day-to-day basis and that like
00:12:51.600
everything from the take home to the
00:12:53.519
like full day like resembles or
00:12:55.800
represents the work that you're going to
00:12:57.240
do once you're hired because that's a
00:12:59.700
better experience for you and also a
00:13:01.200
much more accurate picture for us as the
00:13:03.000
company of like what it's going to be
00:13:04.620
like to work together that's what we
00:13:05.579
want to know at the end of the day
00:13:07.320
um so I'm I'm really glad that we're all
00:13:08.940
on the same page there yeah if you don't
00:13:10.740
mind me picking back in a little bit um
00:13:12.180
beyond the actual code entering code
00:13:14.760
into your laptop as we're watching you
00:13:17.100
um there are some questions that were
00:13:18.300
like instead of you tackling this card
00:13:20.100
and and fixing it or making this feature
00:13:22.800
a thing let's talk through how you would
00:13:24.839
approach it and maybe decide together
00:13:27.839
um verbally how to fix this problem so
00:13:30.240
even if you don't have the code shops
00:13:31.980
even just talking through your ideas of
00:13:34.079
architecture and API flows and things
00:13:36.300
like that can be a huge thing because
00:13:37.800
again that goes back to the
00:13:38.820
communication part of everything because
00:13:39.959
that is a big part of teams
00:13:42.720
if I could snap after every one of those
00:13:45.360
answers I would but that would be
00:13:46.620
distracting so I won't do it
00:13:48.680
okay so we've talked about hiring uh
00:13:52.019
bringing people onto our teams and often
00:13:54.959
um once we've hired someone and we're
00:13:56.339
onboarding them
00:13:57.600
one of the first things they do is
00:13:59.040
choose the benefits that they get and
00:14:01.440
benefits turns out can be inclusive or
00:14:04.440
exclusive if you came to the transgender
00:14:06.540
issues panel yesterday you will have
00:14:08.639
heard that for example being able to get
00:14:13.139
transition related Medical Care is
00:14:15.360
life-saving it is life-saving care and
00:14:17.760
so I wanted to ask what benefits does
00:14:21.240
your company offer that you would
00:14:23.100
consider inclusive and then part two of
00:14:25.500
this question does your health insurance
00:14:28.920
benefits do your health insurance
00:14:30.240
benefits cover uh gender transition
00:14:36.079
yeah um from so from Shopify
00:14:39.720
um we offer a number of benefits first
00:14:42.480
off we're a fully remote company 100
00:14:44.279
remote and part of that is baking in
00:14:46.740
flexibility in uh in a work day around
00:14:49.860
also personal time off we know that
00:14:52.199
people like we don't just walk or talk
00:14:54.839
the talk about work-life balance like we
00:14:56.639
walk the walk
00:14:58.260
um so so that's something that's really
00:14:59.940
really important
00:15:01.440
um of course for American employees
00:15:03.360
health care coverage for fully and for
00:15:06.839
employees nominal fees that you would
00:15:09.180
pay for any dependents in the household
00:15:12.500
things like Mental Health Care is
00:15:15.420
actually we have coverage on that too
00:15:18.060
um
00:15:18.860
in in terms of gender transition care we
00:15:21.959
do have full coverage in the United
00:15:23.160
States as well as in Canada so for us
00:15:25.800
it's really important to ensure that
00:15:27.360
every employee feels that they can bring
00:15:31.500
their authentic selves to work and feel
00:15:33.600
good in any respect for that
00:15:38.339
I am certainly not an expert in this
00:15:40.440
area so I have a couple notes from the
00:15:43.139
lead of our HR
00:15:44.579
um but I I can't say in terms of a
00:15:47.339
general answer to that question we also
00:15:49.680
very much love our teams we have paid
00:15:51.839
Fridays off on this during the summer
00:15:53.519
and then during the rest of the year
00:15:54.720
it's every other week so that allows you
00:15:57.360
to have more time to spend with your
00:15:58.380
family we offer paid maternity paternity
00:16:00.540
and bonding leave for various other
00:16:03.000
alternative parenting options
00:16:05.699
um there's uh every five years if you
00:16:08.699
get a sabbatical of month-long paid
00:16:11.160
sabbatical so I had mine this summer it
00:16:13.620
was late because of covid but I remember
00:16:16.079
when I came back my manager was just
00:16:18.540
like you know what
00:16:20.040
um
00:16:20.699
of course slack was running while I was
00:16:22.860
out as you may know and emails were
00:16:25.019
coming in but he was like as you're when
00:16:26.880
you're gone delete slack from your phone
00:16:28.440
delete it from your computer turn off
00:16:29.940
your email access and when you get back
00:16:31.320
do that whole like shift Escape thing
00:16:32.940
and a slack where you clear all the red
00:16:34.740
dots uh so I didn't have to go back and
00:16:37.320
look at anything if somebody needed
00:16:38.519
something from me we were confident that
00:16:40.079
they would come back and find me when I
00:16:41.639
got back so even things like that uh
00:16:44.040
just making sure that you are taking
00:16:45.360
care of yourself outside of work is huge
00:16:47.399
in terms of like healthcare we do offer
00:16:49.980
coverage for mental behavioral
00:16:51.660
infertility Essential Medical for
00:16:53.759
transgender uh members but as far as
00:16:56.339
gender transition itself apparently we
00:16:58.860
had a long conversation yesterday with
00:17:00.180
our Healthcare Providers and that isn't
00:17:01.500
covered fully yet but that is something
00:17:03.060
they're working on and we expect within
00:17:05.579
the coming year I guess that's the
00:17:07.500
calendar year so 2023 sometime we hope
00:17:09.660
to have that fully covered as well
00:17:11.699
yeah I can speak to um speaking as a
00:17:14.160
queer person uh healthcare for queer
00:17:16.199
people can be really complicated
00:17:17.760
um our Healthcare we're on Blue Cross
00:17:18.839
Blue Shield does cover transition but
00:17:20.520
with a bunch of prerequisites which is
00:17:22.140
unfortunately pretty common for Trans
00:17:23.400
Healthcare uh these days
00:17:25.260
um it's I think you need to live and
00:17:26.880
work as your gender for a year and have
00:17:28.740
an official diagnosis of gender
00:17:29.820
dysphoria or GID before you can uh
00:17:32.220
before procedures are covered
00:17:35.039
um but yeah I mean being able to one of
00:17:37.740
the nice things about so split was a
00:17:39.299
year and a half ago was only 10 people
00:17:40.620
we're now about 30. and so being able to
00:17:43.620
make sure that sputwise the company is a
00:17:45.360
good place and not just was the app is a
00:17:47.220
good place
00:17:48.179
um is really important to me and you
00:17:50.640
definitely see it in the people you work
00:17:51.840
with
00:17:53.100
um echoing a lot of the things we've
00:17:54.480
already said like extended parental
00:17:56.520
leave is really important for us our
00:17:57.660
CEOs on Parental leave right now a bunch
00:17:59.100
of other employees have taken parental
00:18:00.600
leave in the last year we offered 12
00:18:02.520
weeks and then another six if you
00:18:03.960
personally gave birth
00:18:06.120
um we uh our official work hours are ten
00:18:08.760
to five Monday through Friday we know
00:18:10.200
that work tends to bleed beyond that
00:18:11.880
boundary a little bit so if we want to
00:18:13.980
aim for you to have an actual 40-hour
00:18:15.600
work week then it's important for the
00:18:16.980
real boundary to be 35.
00:18:19.320
um just like kind of being realistic
00:18:20.640
about how things like slack and email
00:18:22.559
and et cetera tend to bleed into our
00:18:23.940
lives we are also we're hybrid so we
00:18:26.880
have about half of our folks are based
00:18:28.440
here in Providence about half are fully
00:18:30.120
remote even the folks here in Providence
00:18:31.860
work from home several days a week so
00:18:33.960
I've like we have a mandatory work from
00:18:35.820
home day on Wednesday to make sure that
00:18:37.140
our remote culture doesn't treat remote
00:18:38.520
folks as second-class Citizens
00:18:41.400
um yeah I think that's a at least a
00:18:43.380
brief overview of the highlights
00:18:45.960
awesome thank you for sharing all that
00:18:47.700
and
00:18:48.780
things
00:18:50.220
aren't always where we want them to be
00:18:52.440
but I I hope one thing that we take away
00:18:54.780
from this panel is hearing how other
00:18:56.520
people approach these uh benefits or
00:19:00.679
other tools that they can use and like
00:19:03.240
take that back to our companies and work
00:19:05.039
towards that ideal
00:19:07.020
okay so you've hired someone they've
00:19:09.299
signed up for benefits it's the worst
00:19:10.799
part of the year
00:19:12.240
um
00:19:13.440
what and once they're on your team and
00:19:16.740
actively one of your teammates you want
00:19:18.900
to create a culture that continues to
00:19:21.660
include them so as Leaders on your
00:19:25.200
companies or on your in your companies
00:19:26.760
or on your teams how can you identify
00:19:29.280
issues of inclusion within your teams
00:19:31.559
and what tools can you use to rectify
00:19:34.440
those
00:19:36.419
uh we have been around since 2006 we've
00:19:39.299
been around a while and
00:19:41.039
um traditionally we've been people who
00:19:43.320
kind of look like me and we realized
00:19:45.539
number of years ago that that was an
00:19:47.400
issue because we have a varied customer
00:19:50.280
base we need a varied
00:19:52.380
um amount a buried look and feel of our
00:19:56.640
employees themselves and so we went
00:19:58.860
through a um a nine month intensive
00:20:01.500
process with some Consultants that's an
00:20:03.299
outside consultancy to help us Identify
00:20:05.460
some blind spots that we might have and
00:20:07.860
Implement specific ways to address those
00:20:10.440
blind spots we've actually carried on
00:20:12.419
from there yearly surveys to our
00:20:15.900
employees for things like
00:20:18.240
um acceptance and and the deib things
00:20:21.179
that are are within the past year have
00:20:23.520
come up make sure that we have a strong
00:20:25.500
pulse on where the company is and the
00:20:27.780
things we can continue to prove on I
00:20:30.299
think one of the best things that we did
00:20:31.799
was realize that we're not doing it as
00:20:34.559
as well as we could do it and then and
00:20:36.720
going out making it a priority spending
00:20:38.880
the money you know money speaks spending
00:20:40.500
the money to go out and make sure that
00:20:42.059
someone else was helping us Identify
00:20:44.039
some of those blind spots so if your
00:20:46.500
company has the availability in terms of
00:20:48.299
funds to do that I know it's kind of a
00:20:49.740
tricky time in Tech right now
00:20:51.360
but we found that hugely beneficial for
00:20:54.120
us and even coming to a conference like
00:20:57.000
this was a big step for us and hopefully
00:21:01.440
shows our employees internally and some
00:21:03.360
of you as well that we are making some
00:21:04.740
of those steps to to rectify some of
00:21:06.419
those issues we see in Tech in general
00:21:09.179
yeah I think for um for split-wise at
00:21:12.179
least like
00:21:13.140
I think the Bedrock of everything is
00:21:15.000
psychological safety right like in order
00:21:17.280
to
00:21:19.559
workplaces evolve over time and
00:21:21.720
hopefully evolve in the right direction
00:21:22.919
and so in order to get the kind of
00:21:25.500
feedback that you need about the ways in
00:21:27.840
which you could be doing better you need
00:21:29.640
to be providing a safe enough
00:21:30.659
environment to the people who work under
00:21:32.100
you that they can give you honest
00:21:33.539
feedback and trust that a you're not
00:21:35.520
going to retaliate against them for it B
00:21:37.620
that you're actually going to listen to
00:21:38.820
it and process it and see that you're
00:21:40.500
actually going to make changes based on
00:21:42.179
what they told you and so at split wise
00:21:44.880
I think we have a really strong culture
00:21:46.080
of like iterating on culture frequently
00:21:48.480
and trying to do frequent experiments
00:21:50.460
about how we operate internally to make
00:21:53.159
sure that you know uh certainly in the
00:21:55.919
last year again we grew from 10 to 30
00:21:57.179
people over the last 18 months and a
00:21:59.400
really big Focus was not losing the kind
00:22:01.559
of psychological safety that we had as a
00:22:03.179
group of 10 that knew each other really
00:22:04.440
well and trusted each other and could
00:22:06.720
give each other hard feedback about what
00:22:08.940
was or wasn't working in terms of it
00:22:10.620
being a positive workplace and and doing
00:22:13.260
our jobs well and I think we've managed
00:22:15.600
to keep that and part of that is the
00:22:16.919
hiring process making sure to evaluate
00:22:19.140
folks not just on again they're
00:22:21.000
technical chops but how do you
00:22:22.620
communicate how do you respect your your
00:22:24.120
teammates how do you like uh fit into
00:22:26.640
this vision of a split wise that
00:22:28.559
continues to grow uh in a like Global
00:22:30.960
and inclusive way and so yeah I think
00:22:33.900
that if there's a like specific tip it's
00:22:36.179
basically to not be content especially
00:22:38.700
if you were in a position of power or
00:22:39.960
privilege like to feel the discomfort of
00:22:42.900
where you are not meeting your ideals
00:22:44.400
and to make sure that you are making
00:22:45.659
small and steady improvements to go back
00:22:47.340
to the the Zen of um uh incremental
00:22:50.220
automation talk like you don't have to
00:22:51.659
do it all at once find little ways to
00:22:54.480
make little changes and then evaluate
00:22:56.220
whether those little changes worked and
00:22:57.720
what the next little changes should be
00:23:01.559
um so one of the important the core of
00:23:04.860
inclusivity for me is for people to be
00:23:08.039
able to bring their voices
00:23:10.080
um to the conversation
00:23:12.059
um and as an engineering manager one of
00:23:13.799
the things that I I try to do is to look
00:23:16.799
out for who's able to bring their voices
00:23:20.159
um to any conversation what the power
00:23:21.840
dynamics are like and who's not able to
00:23:24.240
speak or speak up when necessary so that
00:23:27.780
you know that observation that kind of
00:23:29.640
pattern matching being able to read
00:23:31.380
between the lines of social situations
00:23:33.900
or conversations is very important I
00:23:36.179
think that's like one of the tricks I
00:23:37.919
use as an engineering manager and also
00:23:41.240
listening but in order for people to
00:23:45.320
talk to you like you said
00:23:48.500
you need to create a safe safe
00:23:50.580
environment and for an engineering
00:23:52.440
manager that means building trust with
00:23:54.419
your reports so that they're comfortable
00:23:57.020
opening up to you and they're
00:23:59.039
comfortable sharing their problems or
00:24:01.320
the complaints or their successes and
00:24:03.720
wins at the same time so that you can
00:24:06.120
understand what their journey is like
00:24:08.539
and how they're having are they having a
00:24:11.039
good time or bad time are they able to
00:24:12.720
bring their voice uh to the conversation
00:24:15.000
and then to you know basically fix if
00:24:18.419
there are any problems those are the
00:24:20.100
tricks I use yeah to add one more little
00:24:21.780
bit of flavor there something I found
00:24:23.700
really interesting in Dr tenenbaum's
00:24:25.500
talk on on Monday evening was
00:24:28.039
the ways in which some of the techniques
00:24:31.679
and tips that she was giving I think are
00:24:33.720
important to consider if you are
00:24:35.760
speaking from a position of of relative
00:24:37.740
power
00:24:38.760
in particular uh her note on getting rid
00:24:42.059
of weak so-called weasel words like I
00:24:43.740
think or I believe or Etc is actually a
00:24:47.280
tool to be used I think constructively
00:24:49.440
if you're speaking from a place of power
00:24:50.940
to try to be transparent with the people
00:24:52.500
that you're working with that like this
00:24:53.820
is not an edict from on high or this is
00:24:55.980
a thing that you have uncertainty about
00:24:57.059
or this is a thing that you want
00:24:58.080
feedback on
00:24:59.520
and so I think if you are if you find
00:25:01.260
yourself higher in the hierarchy being
00:25:03.720
conscious that you you speak in a
00:25:06.480
context right like you have have power
00:25:08.340
that the people underneath you do not
00:25:10.740
um and the way that your words are
00:25:12.780
received are different than if you said
00:25:14.400
them from a different position within
00:25:15.900
the organization and so uh just kind of
00:25:18.720
making the note that like most advice
00:25:20.640
you will get including from us is not
00:25:22.260
one size fits all like figure out what
00:25:23.700
fits with your team and how to hear each
00:25:26.940
other and respond to each other and in
00:25:28.679
the way that humans should
00:25:30.059
if you don't mind I would like to add
00:25:31.380
one more thing as well
00:25:32.760
um it seems that up here we've got uh
00:25:35.520
different representative sizes of
00:25:37.440
companies so spotify's I'm sorry Spotify
00:25:39.480
shopify's
00:25:41.460
Shopify is pretty big
00:25:43.679
um we're like 120 you guys are around
00:25:45.360
30.
00:25:46.500
um but there's a theme there of being
00:25:48.480
intentional about realizing where your
00:25:51.299
blind spots are and being intentional
00:25:53.039
about trying to rectify those and
00:25:56.220
treating people as human beings so no
00:25:58.440
matter how big the company is how big
00:25:59.940
your team is I think that overall if
00:26:02.220
it's just one thing I think that could
00:26:03.600
be the thing you take away from that
00:26:05.940
yeah snap big snaps to that
00:26:08.520
um okay we're gonna do a lightning round
00:26:10.020
15 seconds what is one thing that you
00:26:12.779
experience at work that makes you feel
00:26:14.159
included
00:26:21.900
um my management peer group
00:26:25.799
super supportive group and every time we
00:26:28.260
have meetings with them I feel supported
00:26:30.539
and included and heard so I want to
00:26:33.240
thank them from here
00:26:35.279
for us we have a a set one-on-one
00:26:38.220
schedule with our managers and with any
00:26:40.020
direct reports we have and so those are
00:26:42.179
times where we can bring up any concerns
00:26:44.520
or thoughts we have and help them get
00:26:46.140
higher up as needed so that that's
00:26:48.000
important to me
00:26:49.740
I'll call out a very specific thank you
00:26:52.039
I gave a railsconf talk in in 2018 that
00:26:56.400
I'm very proud of on checkups
00:26:58.380
uh the week before that I had to take
00:27:00.299
the entire week off for mental health
00:27:01.860
because there was enough going on in my
00:27:03.900
my life that I was having a really
00:27:05.640
really hard time
00:27:06.960
and my good friend and colleague and
00:27:09.539
co-worker Jess held down the fort in
00:27:11.580
that week and that was incredibly
00:27:13.620
valuable to me and I'm really really
00:27:15.059
appreciative
00:27:16.880
yeah just on that theme I actually
00:27:19.940
talked to my manager if this was two
00:27:22.080
weeks ago and said that I needed to take
00:27:23.580
a mental health day and I actually never
00:27:25.620
said that out loud before
00:27:27.480
and if the the reception was just so
00:27:30.240
warm and she actually said like I'm glad
00:27:32.279
that you're asking me for what you need
00:27:33.600
and that made me feel tremendously
00:27:35.340
supported
00:27:36.659
so yeah just gestures like that are huge
00:27:40.860
um in general too I'm a part of the
00:27:42.299
women's ERG group like just not
00:27:44.279
necessarily like organizing things but I
00:27:46.140
find like that space too has been
00:27:47.700
tremendously supportive for me in my
00:27:49.200
journey at Shopify
00:27:51.360
awesome thank you all so much both for
00:27:53.820
sponsoring rubyconf mini and for being
00:27:56.100
on this panel for the audience I hope
00:27:58.320
you've taken away some things you can
00:27:59.820
bring back to your companies to advocate
00:28:01.620
for uh to make the whole culture of the
00:28:04.080
Ruby Community more inclusive so please
00:28:05.700
a round of applause for our panelists
00:28:09.360
foreign